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  • The world'southward height authors answer questions from members of the Forum's Volume Order.
  • Organisational psychologist Adam Grant joins us on the countdown episode to discuss his book Think Once again: The Power of Knowing What You lot Don't Know, 'unlearning' and the pandemic.

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On the inaugural episode of the Globe Economical Forum Volume Club Podcast, nosotros're joined by organisational psychologist and bestselling writer Adam Grant.

Adam helps his millions of readers, listeners and followers notice meaning and motivation in their work. And over the last year, while the pandemic fell across the world, he used his insight to help at domicile likewise - and share that with us in this episode as we discuss his latest volume, Retrieve Over again:

The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. He also takes questions posed past some of our 200,000 Volume Club members and gives us recommendations for books by his favourite authors every bit says what podcasts he listens to.

I first asked Adam about one of the biggest ideas in his book: 'the power of unlearning'.

Adam Grant: I think that one of the dangers of living in a apace changing world is that we end up carrying around mental fossils in our heads, all opinions and assumptions that might accept made sense in a previous version of the world but are no longer truthful. And I think in a in a dynamic earth, nosotros need to be equally quick to call back again as we were to call back in the first place.

Many of the states don't. At that place's evidence to suggest that too many of us spend a lot of our time thinking like preachers, prosecutors or politicians. And then when you're in preacher mode, you're defending your views. When you're in prosecutor mode, you're attacking someone else's views. And when you're in a politician way, you only mind to someone if they already agree with your views. And in all three mindsets, yous've already adamant that you're right. Other people are wrong. And then they might demand to think again, but y'all're all good - your mental piece of work is done.

I wrote this volume to figure out how we could spend less fourth dimension in 'preacher, prosecutor and politician' mode, and how we could call back a little bit more like scientists, where we recognise that we might be wrong, nosotros're equally motivated to look for reasons why nosotros might have incomplete noesis as we are to assert our existing convictions. We listen to ideas that make us think difficult, not just the ones that make u.s. experience skilful. And we surround ourselves with people who claiming our thought process, non merely the ones who agree with our conclusions. And I recollect if we all brought a fiddling fleck of the humility to know what we don't know, the doubtfulness that nosotros don't attach often enough to the things we retrieve we do know, and the curiosity to discover more, we might have more open minds and I think a more open up minded world is probably a better globe.

Beatrice: Definitely. And practice you lot think historic period plays a role in this? Are younger people more than open and humble to unlearning things? Or is this something anyone can do at whatever phase in life?

Everyone you run across knows something you don't

Adam Grant: The age data are interesting, I retrieve they actually cutting in both directions. Then on the one hand, older people generally are more fixed in their views, and they really likewise share more fake news on social media, if you look at the data. On the other hand, though, they tend to be a little bit more apprehensive, whereas younger people are a picayune bit more than egotistic, a little chip more entitled, and sometimes have inflated opinions of their own opinions. And so I think there's a instance to be made that at whatever age you can struggle with rethinking, but also at any age you can choose to adopt a little bit more than mental flexibility. I think all that involves is just recognising that the more you know, the more unanswered questions you raise, and the quest for knowledge is never finished. And I think if y'all keep that in the back of your mind, you lot become a lifelong learner and you lot outset to realise that every single person you meet knows something that you don't. And therefore, every interaction is a adventure to aggrandize your noesis.

Book Club: His latest book, Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know

Beatrice: And then would you say that humility and the ability to unlearn are key tools that every employee/manager should take in 2021?

Adam Grant: I call back 2020 forced usa to practice a lot of rethinking: of where we work, of how we get things done, how we collaborate from a distance, how we continue culture alive, how we learn when we're non necessarily having spontaneous interactions. And I recall that every bit those changes were really forced upon us, the people who are reluctant to think once again had a lot more difficulty adapting.

What did seem to predict adaptation to this really unexpected situation was beingness agreeable and emotionally stable, being somebody who is comfortable going with the flow and generally trying to make the best of a bad state of affairs. One of the mistakes that I've watched a lot of people make is, now as nosotros're starting to think about the return to work they're trying to say: 'All right, let'due south figure out a program. We might be back in the office, nosotros might be 'remote-first' or nosotros might be hybrid, only we demand to brand a commitment considering we're facing a lot of doubt and people are asking a lot of questions.'

And I think this is the worst time for a commitment because nosotros're however barely beginning to surface the knowledge that we gained from this global experiment that no one opted into. And I recall what we should be doing is actually running more experiments, even simply asking the question of what's the best experiment you ran in the concluding yr and a one-half when it came to trying to get things done or trying to collaborate or fifty-fifty finding a semblance of work-life balance in a world where it felt like you were either sleeping at piece of work or your function suddenly took over your home. And I think we've all been running these modest A/B tests in our own lives, but we're not actually sharing what we've learnt broadly enough and testing it rigorously enough to figure out what kinds of habits are going to work for all of u.s.a. moving forward.

Beatrice: Definitely. And I think I've conducted a lot of failed experiments myself this year.

Adam Grant: Me as well.

Beatrice: Have you noticed any experiments that y'all've done that work? Waking upwards early? Going for a jog before you kickoff work? Is there annihilation specific that has worked for you in the by two years while living in this new normal?

Traffic lights

Adam Grant: Well, actually, we accept a new experiment at home that we just started final weekend. I was talking with an Hour leader who said: 'The best affair nosotros did was nosotros had a person who created a traffic calorie-free at habitation to try to signal when interruptions were OK versus probably not welcome.'

And I only thought that was genius. I couldn't believe I hadn't heard of that in the past year and a half. And I mentioned it to my kids and our 10-year-old immediately drew one, and I've started using it now. The green low-cal says, basically: 'Hugs are welcome - come on in, I would love to see yous'. The yellowish lite is: 'Come in if it's important, only I'one thousand trying to concentrate or focus'. And the blood-red light is: 'Do Non Come up IN unless it'south a true emergency - I'm in the eye of giving a keynote speech communication or some kind of presentation or I'm on Television receiver'.

And it'southward amazing how much it helps, not just to brand the implicit explicit and signal whether you're open or closed off to spontaneous interruptions or Zoom bombs, but also involving our kids in really coming up with the low-cal, they actually started to have buying over it, so our daughter was explaining it to our other two kids and trying to talk them through exactly when it was a expert idea versus not such a good thought to barge in. When it comes to boundaries, it'due south such a simple step, simply a pretty powerful one.

Beatrice: This actually reminds me of our last chat in Davos where we spoke about parenting. Has your stance on parenting changed in the past two years? Is there any more advice that you'd accept for parents? This boundary setting exercise is a fantastic one. Is in that location anything else y'all'd recommend to parents, new parents, in the pandemic with everyone beingness stuck at dwelling house together?

Manage uncertainty

Adam Grant: You know, I think I call up this has been actually difficult. I think probably the all-time advice that I got came from a conversation I had with Scott Kelly, the astronaut who spent a year in space. Scott told me that when he went to do his version of remote work - living on the infinite station for 340 directly days - he set a goal that he was going to come back to Globe with the same energy and enthusiasm that he had when he left. And I thought this was ingenious because one of the biggest challenges that the pandemic has been - just the unpredictability of not knowing when it'due south going to cease. And I call back information technology would have been easier for a lot of usa to cope with it if someone just said at the start: 'Await, this is probably going to exist a rough 2 years and don't expect things to render to normalcy anytime before long,' as opposed to: 'Well, we might be turning the corner in a year, and and then a yr and a half and, and then expect a minute, no, there'south a Delta variant, now what?'

And I remember what what I took away from Scott's arroyo was to say, if you could create a clearer mental motion picture of the future, it helps you manage that doubt. And so I sat down with my married woman and kids and we said: the day this pandemic is over, what practise we want to do, where do we want to go, and who do we desire to come across? And that image kept us energised. We've updated information technology throughout the pandemic, and I retrieve if yous haven't had that conversation with your kids, at present is a swell time to do it.

Beatrice: You wrote this fantastic piece about 'languishing'. Could you explicate to our audience that might not be enlightened what languishing is? I retrieve when the slice came out, it was at a moment where I think nearly people were feeling the same. What advice would you have for people that are languishing right now and might not exist able to flourish, but at to the lowest degree a piece of advice or 2 to feel a bit better?

Languishing

Adam Grant: So I merely actually merely gave a new TED talk on languishing and one of the things that I realised while I was preparing for it was there is a window of 2020 where I was languishing and I didn't even know it. I found myself staying upward mode too belatedly doomscrolling, I was lying in bed in the morn playing online Scrabble when I'm unremarkably one of those morning people who simply bounces out of bed ready to to start the solar day. And I couldn't figure out what was going on because I thought: 'OK, I'chiliad non depressed - I have enough of hope. I'm non burned out - I even so have lots of energy. I'yard just kind of blah.'

And it took me a couple of months for it to click that I was experiencing what the sociologist Corey Keyes has chosen languishing and studied for almost 2 decades now. Then languishing is a sense of ennui or stagnation or emptiness where you lot feel like yous're looking at life in grayscale instead of in colour. I think one of the reasons it's and then difficult to find languishing is it'southward really not the presence of anything, it's the absence of something, right? You don't have whatsoever signs of mental affliction, just you're not the complete picture of mental health, either. So Keyes defined it actually as 'the absence of well-being'. And I think if you want to escape languishing, psychologists oftentimes recommend that information technology's helpful to 'proper name it to tame it', that just labelling the emotion can assist you understand it and and then also find ways to overcome it.

I think one of the mistakes a lot of people have made during the pandemic is they've said: 'Well, I don't know what to exercise. I've never I've never lived through a pandemic before'. It is true, unless you're 104 years old, you probably haven't, and fifty-fifty then, I'm guessing you lot don't call back it very well. But if you realise that y'all're languishing and you say that pandemic fog, that sense of not having much to look forrard to, that'due south languishing, you lot can then stride out of the kind of overly narrow view of 'I don't know how to cope with a pandemic'. Yous tin can zoom out and say: 'OK, when was the last time I languished? And what helped me through it?' Then you tin can learn lessons from your own resilience. And I think that so many times when nosotros face adversity, whether you're languishing or burned out or dealing with extreme anxiety or depression, if yous tin recognise times when y'all felt those emotions before, you could actually so effigy out: 'What do I already know that might assist me through this, and what wisdom have I already gained in past trials and tribulations that might exist applicable at present?'

Beatrice: A very popular question from our Book Club members, who devour your book list recommendations, was: what books would you lot recommend for 2021? Exercise you have a superlative iii? Are at that place whatever authors that you're peculiarly post-obit? I know it's a tough question, just our readers would love to know.

Adam Grant: This is like request me to cull my favourite child. It's really hard. But allow me start by saying, if yous haven't already, drop what you're doing and read High Conflict past Amanda Ripley. It's it's a book nearly something I've experienced over and over in my life, which is: I think somebody is wrong, and so I become into 'logic nifty' mode and hammer them with data and facts. And I've brought my all-time prosecuting attorney to the interaction, and they evidence up with their most stubborn defence attorney. And neither of united states gets anywhere and the conflict spirals out of control. I thought Amanda did a vivid chore explaining why we go trapped in conflict spirals and and then using scientific discipline and not bad storytelling to perhaps give yous some ideas well-nigh how to escape them or avoid them in the first identify.

So that'due south 1 favourite. Another outstanding volume that just came out is Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman. Information technology'southward a searing indictment of the gospel of time management, and reading it completely turned upside-downwards my assumptions about how we tin use our fourth dimension wisely. One of the things I took abroad from Oliver's writings is that no matter how skilful you get at time management, if yous obsess about information technology, it just makes you more aware of all the hours you're wasting. And I recollect he gives a surprisingly uplifting - given how sceptical his take is - analysis of what we can practise to brand the most of our time and our attention as well. I think it's a must read.

Some of Adam Grant's book recommendations.

Some of Adam Grant'south book recommendations.

If y'all terminate those ii, other than High Conflict and Iv Thousand Weeks, what would I recommend with unbridled enthusiasm? Susan Cain has a book coming out called Bittersweet, which is about the joy of sadness and the value of ambivalent emotions and experiences. She's been working on it for a long time. I recollect it's it'southward an incredible follow up to her beginning smash hit Serenity, and I tin't wait for it to hit bookshelves.

Beatrice: Very relevant choices. Thanks. And considering this is a podcast, I have to ask, do you have any podcast recommendations for our audience? Are at that place one or more that you would recommend specifically?

Why giving advice can help you

Adam Grant: I'chiliad a big fan of Invisibilia if you oasis't listened to the episode, How To Become Batman, I think it's the greatest podcast episode ever made - 'highly recommends' - love revisionist history. A new show that I've merely started listening to is The Fine art of Power, which I think is absolutely riveting. And and so I recall if if you haven't already checked out Glennon Doyle and We Tin Do Hard Things, Glennon ever challenges my thinking and I actually enjoyed that.

Beatrice: Bang-up recommendations again. Give thanks yous. Our Book Club members were very peachy to know what your daily routine looks similar. When practise you have time to read or write? Do you gear up upward a time frame for writing parts of your new book? Do you take a time limit on podcasts you listen to? What does your day look like?

Adam Grant: Well, making fourth dimension to listen to podcasts is easy. I heed when I take out the garbage, when washing dishes. Sometimes when working out. I was even listening at the dentist the other day. So, you know, anything I'1000 doing that that requires my eyes, but not my ears is, I remember, off-white game for podcast consumption. I as well sometimes listen when falling asleep, although if it's an incredible episode, it occasionally keeps me awake, but I feel like sometimes it'due south worth information technology.

Writing I like to do in the morning time. What I typically do is when our kids leave for schoolhouse, I'll answer a few emails simply to warm upwards and get myself into the rhythm of typing and formulating coherent sentences. And and then I'll showtime writing, and I'll write until I run out of data and ideas, which sometimes is a fifteen-minute window, sometimes is four or five hours. And I try not to be too structured about it considering I observe that I really rapidly want to exist overly linear, and when I'chiliad drafting, I desire the creative juices to period. And then I'll come back and edit when I have a slightly more sceptical and critical lens on. Just I think for divergent thinking, I want to keep the attentional filters depression and then for quality control, that's when I try to raise the the attentional filters and really ask: 'Who who wrote this? And I hope it wasn't me, considering I'm really maybe embarrassed by yesterday's output.' Merely that way I can cut out all the content that's not worth sharing and hopefully exist left with something that is.

Beatrice: As a concluding question, what piece of advice would y'all take for our listeners, exist it for people returning to piece of work, people still languishing, people not being able to unlearn, equally mentioned in your book. What would you lot tell them? What would be one piece of communication ahead of 2022?

Adam Grant: I would say don't take advice from people who don't know you well because it may or may not apply to your state of affairs. But I really remember that instead of seeking communication, sometimes you're better off giving advice. There'south some research which shows that if yous requite somebody else advice, it really boosts your confidence and clarifies your thinking. Then I would say whatever your challenges for 2022, whether you're worried that yous're going to be stuck in an endless loop of languishing, or whether you're not sure about whether to go back to the part or non, find someone who has a similar dilemma and requite them some guidance about how to navigate it. And generally, what you lot'll discover is the communication you give to other people is the advice that you lot demand to take for yourself.

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